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Reader comments:

Phr0stByte @ 2/28/2012 12:28 PM
I am accepting all comments to my original post, except for yours which was rather insulting. If you had bothered to read the post, you would have noticed that I DID offer to pay a "cancellation fee". As I wrote before, its OK to voice your opinion, but its not OK to be insulting. Here is a good guideline for you perhaps: Don't say anything over the net, or phone, that you would not say directly to someone's face for fear of getting your block knocked off.

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The3dStudio.com @ 2/28/2012 12:34 PM
Phr0stByte, I noticed 5 comments so far that you deleted (rather than approving) on your post :) Maybe they were all nasty or rude and I too would delete anything like that on my own blog so I don't fault you there.

For those wondering what post this is here is the direct link...

http://www.the3dstudio.com/blog_detail.aspx?id=3467

...I just wanted to post here to link these up as the MLP discussion is a hot topic :)

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3D Auto Sports @ 2/28/2012 12:53 PM
"I am accepting all comments to my original post, except for yours". Now we can add lying to your list of immature things you have done in the last 24 hours.

Obviously you were not thinking ahead when you agreed to the contract terms. Your offer to pay a fee is invalid.

Here is some straight advice. Sell your t3ds account to someone else, with the condition they will not re-post these models on another site. That way way you can go over to TS and be exclusive. Since the agreement is with the vender. You would not own the t3ds models anymore and qualify SG program.

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Phr0stByte @ 2/28/2012 1:23 PM
OK - I guess you NASCAR fans need a little more explanation than most folk. I will try to slow it down for you:

"I am accepting all comments to my original post, except for yours" - Did you see the word "EXCEPT" in there. That means I accepted everyone's comment - just not yours.

I also see you did not accept my previous advice, and challenge you to ever call me a lier to my face.

As for your light bulb moment about selling my assets only here on T3DS (sorry to disappoint you - I know light bulb moments must be rare for you), I cannot sell the rights to my models here and then go join the Guild there selling the same models - that's just ludicrous.

Want to keep going? The more you talk, the more your ignorance shows.

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The3dStudio.com @ 2/28/2012 1:36 PM
If we can't keep the posts and comments on a human level then I will have to remove both posts on this subject. Seriously guys, let's all grow up a little and move on here. If you can't move on at least be nice to each other and have a meaningful debate.

To quote your advice (Phrostbyte)...

Don't say anything over the net, or phone, that you would not say directly to someone's face

...I personally wouldn't speak like to anyone regardless of what they've done or said to me. Maybe the 5 deleted comments were all from 3D Auto Sports in which case he has no right to call you a liar but when somebody calls you a name there is no need to turn around and do the same thing back.

I know it's easy to get out of control when you are passionate about something or upset about it but let's get our act together here and play nice.

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3D Auto Sports @ 2/28/2012 1:40 PM
HAHA! This has been entertaining. Did you not see this comment:

"I noticed 5 comments so far that you deleted (rather than approving) on your post". By:The3dStudio.com

I only posted once in your blog. So that means you have removed 4 other posts, and when you say I was the only one that was removed, and t3ds shows that you removed more then just one post, that makes you a lier. Simple math really, even for simple nascar lovers like myself.

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The3dStudio.com @ 2/28/2012 1:51 PM
"Simple math really, even for simple nascar lovers like myself."

Hahaha...that made me laugh :)

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Phr0stByte @ 2/28/2012 1:55 PM
Yeah - maybe I did remove some other posts - like ones that had nothing to do with the original post. I let on slip by about the cart count thing, even though I felt it was irrelevant to the conversation. After that comment I moderated what I thought was irrelevant or inflammatory, as I have every right to do on my own post. The fact that you felt the need to start another string on the subject says a lot. Seriously, model another NASCAR or somethin'.

@The3dStudio.com - You may be right about maybe its better not to turn around and do the same thing back, but I pride myself in not saying anything that I would not say to someones face. If I were face to face with either of you, my personally directed comments would still stand.

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3D Auto Sports @ 2/28/2012 2:03 PM
Thanks Matt. I have tried to keep this upbeat and funny. Since I am such a huge nascar fan. Did you I can only turn edges to to the left when I model. I don't know how to turn them to the right!

Thank you for admitting you removed other posts. Being caught in a lie can be embarrassing, but now that you have admitted to doing so shows you are a very upstanding person and willing to show some true character. It's apart of the adventure of growing up. And will be a better person for it.

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Phr0stByte @ 2/28/2012 2:10 PM
Yep - and remember, don't turn right!

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3D Auto Sports @ 2/28/2012 2:17 PM
Wow, you were very rude to VisualMotion. He gave you some very nice and clear advice, and at the end of your reply you say this:

"Maybe there has been a sudden need for rather easy to model rockets in 2012, I don't know."

Very uncalled for. He took time out his day to offer help. And you insult him with your reply. I might have to take back my comment about you have some character.

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The3dStudio.com @ 2/28/2012 2:19 PM
See, NASCAR humor NEVER gets old for me :)

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VisualMotion @ 2/28/2012 4:47 PM
If anything, I hope this was a wake up call for everyone who sells on here or any other site. There are some who listen and some who don't.

Question yourself: Do you want to restrict yourself to one island or do you want access to an entire continent to sell?

And by the way, my rocket fly left too!

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Phr0stByte @ 2/28/2012 5:02 PM
LOL - question: How many accounts are actually you here, Matt?

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The3dStudio.com @ 2/28/2012 6:16 PM
Not sure what you mean, are you now implying that these replies above from 3D Auto Sports and VisualMotion are me?

Hahaha...funny...but so you don't think I am dodging that question I'll publicly tell you that they aren't me and are legit sellers on T3DS like yourself and are no more affiliated with T3DS than you are. I only post under "The3dStudio.com".

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Pumper @ 2/29/2012 12:02 AM
@3D Auto Sports
"Here is some straight advice. Sell your t3ds account to someone else, with the condition they will not re-post these models on another site. That way way you can go over to TS and be exclusive. Since the agreement is with the vender. You would not own the t3ds models anymore and qualify SG program."

If I remember correctly, that was the same exact thing that you did yourself and as a result you got kicked out of SG, had to buy back all the models from the person you've sold them to and had to pay back the 20% overpayment to TS. Seems to me you are giving a wrong advice on purpose.

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3D Auto Sports @ 2/29/2012 1:43 AM
The one part of the story I didn't share was the 2nd party was my wife. Because we file joint taxes, that makes the situation not usable for myself.

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VisualMotion @ 2/29/2012 4:43 AM
@Phr0stByte
Rest assured that I am not Matt. Though it would be funny if I were, I would still be able to sell products on other sites as a MLP member.

Matt, are you moonlighting as a seller on other sites! LMAO

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The3dStudio.com @ 2/29/2012 7:20 AM
Now Phrostbyte deleted by last comment. Well, I will assume it was all so we can put an end to his post then :) Fair enough, I love a good debate but time to move on. Can we all start arguing about something else now...price of gas or something?

VisualMotion: haha, no, I don't touch other sites with a 10 foot pole! I don't even look at other sites so for all I know the TS site now has a red background :)

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Phr0stByte @ 2/29/2012 8:12 AM
@ Matt - Yeah, I deleted your comment - so what. You feel the need to come over to this thread and tattle, like I did something wrong? How childish. I am not excepting any more comments for that blog entry. I feel all the facts for both sides are there and I am finished with the whole business. I am just leaving the post up so people might think a little for carefully about signing that particular agreement and what motivations are behind the agreement in the first place (why it even exists). I think my words to a fellow seller sums it up best:

"Bah - I have totally given up on that front. If he wants to be that way, fine. I wont upload anything more there and will strip everything once the MLP times out. His loss. Even though I am only getting a measly 40% over at the Squid, I am still doing very well. I don't even do 3d professionally - it is just a hobby for me and I like it because it is fun. Making a little money on the side is a great bonus, and I refuse to let Matt suck all the fun out of it for me."

Matt: Enjoy and make the best of my assets while you still can - and have a nice day!

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firechameleon @ 2/29/2012 8:18 AM
Phr0stByte, your "cancellation fee" math is actually flawed... since the contract period is five years, if you want to get out of it (not that Matt legally can let you ), you actually have to pay for the entire five years, not for just the period that has lapsed... and since that amount cannot be calculated as one cannot predict tomorrow's sales, there goes your "cancellation fee".....

honestly, i think you have a problem understanding contracts....
you had a post about p3d.in and it's flawed EULA...
( http://www.the3dstudio.com/blog_detail.aspx?id=3380 ) there's nothing wrong with it, you just misunderstood it.....

i replied to that post too, in case you delete it, here it is

"the eula is rightly written.....

if you are an architect and you use p3d.in to show your proposal to a potential client, that constitutes direct non-commercial use.....

if a freelance digital modeller uses p3d.in to promote his 3d assets, that constitutes indirect commercial use.... "

also, when someone puts a counter point to you argument, please don't call that fellow's post ridiculous or lludicrous.
if you really think it is, then please do say why....

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Phr0stByte @ 2/29/2012 8:49 AM
@firechameleon - I would say your logic is flawed (and ridiculous). How can I pay back the extra 10% on sales that have not happened? In case you missed it, I offered to pay back the extra 10% on all sales that I made sense signing the MLP - that would be everything that I gained from signing the agreement. I cannot give back something more, as I received nothing more.

On the topic about my previous post concerning p3d.in: All I said was "It kinda sucks about the non-commercial use clause in their EULA..." You can go back and read it if you like - its still there. I don't see how you get out of that "honestly, i think you have a problem understanding contracts...." I understood the MLP contract to - I just wanted out of it. I will never get out of it if I don't open my mouth, right? The reason I was upset, is because I thought Matt was an understanding guy and would see that he is holding up my progress and actually give a damn - I was wrong.

There - I think I have given adequate reasoning as to why your post is ridiculous. I hope you can see my point over any hurt feeling you may have at being called "ridiculous". (a really mild term, really...).

To all others: You can gasp all you want, and say "OMG! He is so rude - he called someone ridiculous"! Unfortunately, the nature of the net is that you have to deal with all sorts when you post something publicly - rather there posts have anything to do with the situation, or not. Some just come out to bash because their lives are empty and they have nothing better to do. I don't feel any guilt over being rude to these sorts. Don't get me wrong - rude and ridiculous are two different things. I dish out what I get.

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The3dStudio.com @ 2/29/2012 9:01 AM
To be clear, I am an understanding and fair guy. The problem, Phrostbyte, is that to be understanding and fair I have to do what's best for everyone involved. As I mentioned before (I believe it was the post you deleted actually) I can't give you special treatment because that isn't fair to others.

If I let you out of the MLP then I have to do it for everyone and then what exactly was the point of having the MLP and the agreement between all of us in the first place? See, the MLP idea is that we're all in this together for the long haul and that's why so many authors hopped on board with the idea.

I could make some sort of shady back room deal with you where I let you out if you promise not to tell others but that's just not ethical on my part so I can't do it. I've even spoken out in the past about other sites that have made all sorts of deals with authors like signing bonuses for joining various "programs" and so on...I don't like that stuff and years back we made a conscious decision to make sure all of our members / authors are treated fairly and identical.

See, I am being understanding to ALL involved which covers thousands of artists and goes beyond just you but I think that is the part you aren't appreciating. I wish I could find a solution that would make you happy but still be in the spirit of what the MLP is...but I don't have that answer at this time and that's the ENTIRE reason we made the MLP agreement, so we could avoid issues like this down the road.

I don't expect this reply to make you suddenly see my point of view, just stating it for the record.

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Phr0stByte @ 2/29/2012 9:33 AM
@Matt - I always did see your point of view AND understand it. I was stressing the point of how happy I was being a part of T3DS, hoping you would let me out. Your right I was not very clever in signing an agreement like that, not realizing that my sales could totally tank - and very well could stay tanked and be stuck regardless of how bad they tanked. Totally my bad.

I think the MLP agreement would be greatly improved by adding in an escape clause that the artist could get out my repaying the 10% gain they got while being a part of the program if they wanted out (to avoid messes like this one, for example). It would then be fair for you and everyone involved. No one would feel trapped with absolutely no way out. You could very easily amend the agreement (for all involved - to be fair to all), but I guess it was written that way intentionally trap the artists that signed it (otherwise, there would be no reason NOT to amend it). That kinda depletes your list of excuses, yeah? Just one persons thoughts. Is it my fault for signing it without some such clause - Yes, TOTALLY, as I have repeatedly said.

I won't be replying or even checking on these posts any more. You do what you have to, and I will do the same.

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Phr0stByte @ 2/29/2012 9:35 AM
Sorry - typo: The first line of that last post should read "UNHAPPY".

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The3dStudio.com @ 2/29/2012 11:20 AM
We did think of the 10% re-pay idea but the problem is that the MLP spirit is all about us taking a risk on you and you taking a risk on us. The idea is to put us together for the long haul and if there was an escape clause then all of the risk is on our side, not yours.

For normal selling where you don't join the MLP the risk is all on our side because we can spend our time/money correcting listings, promoting your products, recommending them to customers, etc and then you could remove them tomorrow. So with the MLP we wanted to find a way where our time/money spent on getting your products sold could last over time. For those that wanted to be part of that we reward them with a high royalty rate.

Nothing was written to trap anyone, that's why the MLP agreement is very short and simple and the NUMBER ONE point is that you'll be in it for 5 years. Not sure how you trap somebody when we make that the #1 point! In fact, it was and is the exact opposite because we're telling people right at the start "You agree to keep your products with us for 5 years". Funny how you admit it is your fault but then continue to blame me or find fault with how we setup the MLP. Odd.

I am sorry that your sales haven't done well, when you contacted me about this a week or so back I wrote you a very long reply with suggestions directed at you and how you could improve them. I stand by what I wrote and while I am sure your sales will increase regardless of what you do, I still think that if you follow what I wrote then you will do even better. Like I told you, I love your renders...I love your models...but in many cases they just aren't the type of models our customers buy as often. That binder clip is awesome...but do we get a lot of people coming here for a binder clip? No, not really. You might sell that binder clip 100 times a day at the squid for all I know, and if so that just means that their audience is a little different than ours which isn't a bad thing at all.

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Phr0stByte @ 2/29/2012 12:00 PM
Oh, for Christ's sakes...

1) I am not blaming you for anything. So sensitive... I just don't like being stuck in an agreement I no longer care for. Maybe my first idea was not that great about the escape clause - maybe it should me a POOR SALES clause, where you can get out if you aren't selling anything anyway. If nothing is selling for a specific amount of time, nobody loses if the artist goes. Not you - not the artist. Again, not blaming you, so don't get all defensive and emotional on me. Just offering ideas that could possibly make the agreement better than it is.

2) I promote my models the best I can. I am pretty sure you know this. So why post generic suggestions that a already know AND am doing? My binder clip model? Really? Lets keep it real. You had to pick the most obscure and random thing out of my collection - and yeah, I never really expected that to be on the best seller list. It is a fairly new model and it has never sold on TS either. I usually like to compare apples to apples. Like most of my other models, I face more competition from similar models over at the Squid... My collection as a whole for example: TS = 11 sales this month. T3DS = 0. Last month is pretty much a carbon copy. Shall I start posting comparative 1099 form images from TS and the T3DS? How many years do you want to go back?

3) Simply put, sales on your site are way down for me, and I hear the same from many other artists, though I know you will never admit it. Got to keep up appearances, right? If things were going so good, there would not be any reason to sell out. Granted, there may be a few artist doing better here, but there is usually a good reason why: Lower prices here, more personal promotion pointing here, a specialized collection that may do better here rather than there (such as a collection of all rockets, or NASCAR race cars), etc, etc... But as a whole, the site seems to be doing very poorly.

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VisualMotion @ 2/29/2012 12:07 PM
Since there will not be any more responses to this matter I like to pose a conclusion to the matter for all who read these posts. The MLP agreement is not an "intentional trap" for sellers considering everything is written straight forward, in five simple line clauses. And if it were, what about the Guild's contract on only selling exclusively at their site??? And signing on has absolutely nothing to do with why sales tank one month and flourish the next. What makes one think they wouldn't tank elsewhere in the next few months?

Matt, I am sure, has been more than fair in hearing this case. If he gave one an exception then he has to do the same to everyone, and that is not practical way to run a business. The same would be applied to dealing with individual "escape clauses" thought. T3DS presented a option for sellers to obtain higher returns based on a series of conditions. Sign on for five years get 70%, don't you still get 60%, which alone is still one of the highest rates around. You have the option to ask T3DS questions about MLP before signing on much like you do when dealing with any other contract.

Many who have posted at some time had offered some sort of help/solutions to the issue. It is not like there were no options left at all in this case. There is no gray area in this matter, and T3DS is well in compliance of the contractual law. Don't blame them for trying to provide more to their sellers and yet keep T3DS alive in these p1ss poor economical times. This is business and not everyone is doing this as a hobby. Take note that when dealing with any contract, read it thoroughly and understand it fully so you too do not end up on a sour note.

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The3dStudio.com @ 2/29/2012 1:03 PM
Phrostbyte, it's not just the binder clip and my suggestions to you weren't generic. Sure, many of them can apply to anyone but I wrote them based on your model collection to try and help out.

Like I wrote you, great models, the quality is there for sure but the demand for some of those items may not be there. On the other side, some items may be so common that you're competing with 10-50 other sellers and dozens to hundreds of other models. I would lump most chairs and tables into this area. As great as they are we have tons of that stuff. Same with refrigerators and light bulbs.

I love that mixer you have but I don't see a ton of demand for that type of thing to be honest. I could be wrong and time will tell but that's my gut feeling. Great volley ball but we have tons. My advice to you, which I do give to some other sellers as well, is to look more at selling more complex models. The more complex it is the less likely a buyer is to make it themselves and thus more likely they are to buy it online. That's just what I see happening...and it's not always the case as we sell the crap out of chairs and tables (for example) but when you look at the inventory there you'll see that it's a bit heavy. I won't go into more detail here of course because then we're talking about what of your stuff sells better than other stuff and I don't do that publicly :)

See, while I do want to stop the argument that started all of this I would LOVE to actually help you increase sales. The problem is that sometimes we get so upset or bummed out about something that we cut off our nose despite our face and don't listen to the time tested advice being offered. Rather than blame the MLP and/or low sales why not take my advice and let's work together to increase your sales? After all, all of us here at T3DS have personally helped other sellers like yourself over the years and many times they see major increases. At the same time you may have talked with a few MLP-ers who aren't having good sales but I talk with hundreds who are having great sales. The results of a few are not an indication of the overall picture.

Another time test fact about the top sellers: They spend their time creating and publishing new models day after day. They do NOT spend their time on forums and blogs complaining about sales, they spend that time creating products and promoting themselves. Look around at the models being added to T3DS every day and you'll start to see hundreds of the same names popping up on a regular basis. These sellers know how to do well here :)

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The3dStudio.com @ 3/1/2012 3:34 PM
Some of my other posts weren't being approved on the other forum so I wanted to post a reply to Artem here. Artem wrote "MA, don't you think that by treating people like that you'll lose them forever after their MLP time is expired?".

Artem, here is your reply...

As for how I treat people, I think you missed my points here. I am not treating anyone poorly or unfairly, I am simply following the rules THEY agreed to when they joined the MLP program.

To be honest, when I look at authors on T3DS I look at them as long term investments and that's why we have the MLP. We're not interested in authors who plan to add products, leave a short while later, then come back a year after that.

Now, if you aren't in it for the long haul with us then that's okay...there is a place for you here and you can come and go if you want. But that's not what we're looking for and we'd rather spend our time refining product listings by MLP members because we know they'll be here for a long time. They invest in us and we then invest in them. On that note, we treat people VERY well and VERY fairly. Being upset about an agreement that somebody opted into doesn't change any of that.

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Phr0stByte @ 3/1/2012 6:08 PM
Sorry, Matt for not approving your comment right away, I was at work and honestly am not paying attention to it (your site as a whole) much now. It has been approved now, as I popped in to see if by some miracle, something might have sold here after 2.5 months. Speaking of not approving things and deleting posts and such, why is not my blog entry in the list of "Lastest blog posts" on the home page box? Hmmmmmm..... Guess you can't complain about creative editing, right?

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The3dStudio.com @ 3/2/2012 7:23 AM
Notice that this post isn't in the latest blog posts on the home page either, we only select relevant posts to feature there. We mainly pick stuff that talks about 3d news, people posting new products they listed, and so on. Don't worry, nobody is out to get you :)

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Phr0stByte @ 3/2/2012 10:20 AM
OK - you might want to change "Lastest" to actual word though. Not poking fun or anything - just thought it would show a little more professionalism - especially on the main page.

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The3dStudio.com @ 3/3/2012 7:28 AM
Thanks for that...see, that's what happens when I rush a feature out the door and don't have Lisa spell check the work first :)

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LovePoly @ 4/2/2012 3:07 PM
2Phr0stByte
Are you trying to sabotage T3DS?)
Man, you are gone to far with your posts...grow up.

Matt, I would suggest for you dont reply this guy...this guy just trolling you.

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MkIII @ 4/11/2012 5:36 AM
I honestly don't see what all this is about. You sign a 5 year contract that is about as clear and unambiguous as it could possibly be, and then change your mind. How is that the fault of T3dS?

Sales have troughs and peaks as you know, and I haven't noticed any major drop in overall revenue. In fact it might be a little higher than normal.

Making all that fuss in "public" doesn't achieve anything and you would be far better talking quietly in private.

If you want to get out of that signed contract then I suggest that you talk in private with Matt and perhaps get some legal advice on what you signed to see if there is some sort of agreement that can be reached. Personally, if the contract is as straightforward as it seems, then I can only see that you would have to pay at least the 10% earned on sales so far, as well as the 10% on projected sales over the remaining years. Plus some sum to cover costs. Is it really worth it just to join the TS Guild and still get less revenue, even if their sales are higher?